Spawning Trout Ethics?

[Travis C.]

bd's going to kick me for bringing up this topic but here goes...

I have been checking out some really nice fish pics on several sites across the internet today and pose this question since a lot of the "really nice" fish are all colored up in the spawning colors. The means of being caught are always left out....it just so happens:

Is it the same ethics debate to fish for a trout on a fishery that relies on natural reproduction as one that is a 100% stocked fishery and hasn't shown signs of reproduction.

The debate always falls on the side of the eggs and chance of survival. Well a stocked fishery there is no survival, so where does the debate fall then?

Any thoughts?

[txnative]

I feel that this is less ethics-based than it seems. If no reproduction is possible, period, then the argument that a large fish is a prolific egg-layer is moot. As with hybrid stripers, the only value is the "trophy fishery" factor, and this moves the question into the realm of sport-value and out of the environmental discussion...to an extent. If all large, trophy sized predatory fish are kept and the stocker-sized fish returned, then stunting occurs, ruining the sport-value of the fishery. This is a huge factor in deciding creel and length limits. If you are after spawning trout in a river where natural reproduction is not successful at all, then no one should condemn you for fishing for them. If you keep every one you catch, you're being selfish, obviously, but catch and release should pose no problem.


Chris

Travis, I have a feeling a lot of readers are slapping their foreheads right now, but it is a very interesting topic. I just hope no one takes it too far.

[Travis C.]

I agree with what you said on all accounts. When I looked around online everything is taylored towards the natural reproducing fisheries on this topic.

Yes, you are right by running the risk of removing all the big fish in a system if everyone keeps their legal limits but having correct size lmits in the first place would allow replenishment to an extent. Its not as if the "big" gene as some call it is being passed on to the next generation. I know its not technically true but based on the fisheries spawing limits you're basically fishing for sterile fish in a way.

Even still while most try to fish for that wall hanger in the shallows, they fail to fish to the pods of fish bigger than what they probably normally catch just downstream including wall hanger rainbows.

I just wondered what people thought because sometimes the Caney is treated with kid gloves as if its a primo stream up midwest or out west with a natural reporducing population. Don't get me wrong its a heck of a fishery and will be one of the souths top 10 or 5 in the coming years. I am totally a conservation minded fisherman believing we have to take care of the now for our in my case little girls futures but some of it is a little extreme...

I think the regs we have now should be good for everybody.The trophy fisherman and the fisherman that want to catch a few trout to have a good time and maybe eat a few.I wouldnt want to see those type of regs for alot of other kinds of fish though.

[tkwalker]

Originally Posted by txnative

I feel that this is less ethics-based than it seems. If no reproduction is possible, period, then the argument that a large fish is a prolific egg-layer is moot. As with hybrid stripers, the only value is the "trophy fishery" factor, and this moves the question into the realm of sport-value and out of the environmental discussion...to an extent. If all large, trophy sized predatory fish are kept and the stocker-sized fish returned, then stunting occurs, ruining the sport-value of the fishery. This is a huge factor in deciding creel and length limits. If you are after spawning trout in a river where natural reproduction is not successful at all, then no one should condemn you for fishing for them. If you keep every one you catch, you're being selfish, obviously, but catch and release should pose no problem.


Chris

Travis, I have a feeling a lot of readers are slapping their foreheads right now, but it is a very interesting topic. I just hope no one takes it too far.

There are a lot of great points brought up here ... Hybrids (Stripers) can only happen in the fisheries ... natural repro of Stripers (striped bass proper) is less than 10% in the wild ... now as far as Bows in the Caney ... (PS. Rainbows are a Salmon, German Browns is the only true trout) .... They do REPRODUCE in the Caney If you fish at night from Dec thru Feb while they are spawning you may beat the Browns from eating the eggs from the trophy bows ... Check the mount out at Joel's Big Rock market ... That was not brood stock !! ... ... just an insight of over 40 years on these waters .... ( PS kind of like the the Muskie's they haven't been stocked in Dale Hollow and Rock Island in over 50 years ... But they have survived!!! ) <'TK><

[bd-]

Okay, I'll wade in...

In my opinion there are two issues here: (1) do the trout reproduce, and (2) is it sporting.

1. Do the trout in the Caney reproduce? There is some controversy about this. Some people will say they do - I know Jim at Fly South is convinced they do, and I see TK's post above saying he believes they do too. Jason Henegar, TWRA's stream biologist, says they do not.

Personally, I think they do not.

I haven't seen any evidence of successful reproduction. Little 1 and 2 inch trout fry and parr are very aggressive for their size. When I fish streams out West or in East TN with natural, wild trout reproduction, every once in a while I'll catch a tiny little minnow-sized baby trout, especially when using small flies. But I fish the Caney a LOT and I've never caught one of those baby trout here. You catch 3- and 4-inchers sometimes, which happens to be the fingerling size TWRA puts in when they do fingerling stocking. But never anything smaller, and the fingerlings often show signs of fin wear which is a dead giveaway that they came from a hatchery run.

Whenever someone tells me they are sure trout reproduce in the Caney, I tell them, "Okay, show me a trout fry from the Caney that is underneath the 3-inch fingerling stocker size." No one has been able to do it yet.

IF there is any natural reproduction in the Caney (and that's a big if), it is very rare, and naturally-spawned Caney trout are so few that they might as well not exist. If we had more consistent flows I think we'd get all sorts of reproduction - especially among the browns. You'd have to cut the generators off from October through March though. Until that happens, it's a stocked fishery.

SO if you avoid fishing to trout on the redds only to make sure they reproduce, there's no sense in that on the Caney.

However:

2. Is it sporting? I have a hard time saying it's sporting. Fishing to trout on redds is kind of like shooting fish in a barrel. When trout spawn, they do it in crystal clear water that's only a couple feet deep. They are super-easy to see and cast to. And once they settle down on a redd, they are reluctant to leave it. You can walk up within 20 feet of a 6 pound brown on a redd in November and cast at it over, and over, and over again. I see people "camp out" over these fish on certain spawning bars and cast to them for an hour - often the fish won't eat, but sooner or later it just gets snagged by an errant cast.

You think a trophy brown trout would ever let some clumsy clown tromp up and crisscross her with casts for an hour if she wasn't on a redd? No way, no how. So I just don't tend to think it's much of an accomplishment to catch one that way.

I'll fish to pre-spawn trout that are staging up and getting ready to spawn. Some of these will have full spawning colors - in fact, I'll bet you that some of the browns on the Caney are already fully lit up, even though they won't be on redds for another six weeks.

I'll also fish to trout that are sitting behind the spawners eating drifting eggs - one of my "little secrets" is that a peg-egg drifted off a gravel bar into deep water below can be deadly, deadly, deadly if you know what color to use and where to fish it.

But once a big trout settles down and sits on a redd, I usually pass that one by and leave it alone.

bd

[Travis C.]

Originally Posted by bd-

SO if you avoid fishing to trout on the redds only to make sure they reproduce, there's no sense in that on the Caney.

bd

That is my point exactly on this topic as far as the browns are concerned. I am in no way intending this to be a good excuse to go pluck all the big fish out who won't bite your offering anyway. That statement right you made there bd is what comes across when some talk about the Caney and the fall in my opinion.

I have seen those same boats out there on the same bars and just shake my head.

I'll be honest though, I too look for those fish laid up on redds. The only difference is when I locate them I know whats behind downstream. Not all spawn at the same time and you could waste your time on a fish that won't bite possibly hurting the fish by snagging it all the while one that will sits waiting.

Thanks for the response bd..

[bd-]

I often joke that you can tell where the redds are on the Caney from a half mile away, because you'll see a cluster of fishermen standing in a circle and casting at the same spot.

Like you, I prefer to leave the fish alone when they're redded up, but that doesn't stop me from drifting an egg imitation behind them. When they're digging, other trout will hang downstream and eat the scuds, sowbugs, and insect larvae they are dislodging too.

bd

[Mike Anderson]

I've never seen any sign of enough reproduction to make me think otherwise either. I fish to every fish I can find as long as there aren't crowds which means I don't fish the caney much in fall.... If I see a really fat bow holding in a eddy, cruising around the surface eating PMD's or Ants or anything, I know without a doubt that she sees me to. I don't think, I need to pass on that fish because she's let her guard down in this feeding frenzy. Heck no, I tie on the closest fly I can find to match what I think she's eating and I cast to that fish over and over, sometimes for an hour till I finally figure it out or give up. Is that wrong too?

[txnative]

Why isn't bedfishing for bass given the same stigma? They DO reproduce successfully and fishing for them on beds is a tradition. A number of other fish (walleye, sauger, crappie, white bass, bluegill, etc) are HEAVILY targeted during their spawning seasons, yet no one complains about it, rather, that's when we let each other know about it.

I know trout are managed differently, but if catch & release fishing for them poses no risk to the health or quality of the fishery, why is it viewed so negatively? Food for thought.


Chris

[bd-]

The main difference I see is that bass, walleye, sauger, etc. don't spawn in crystal clear water on gravel bars 2 feet deep where they are so easy to see and wade right up to, and you can't tromp up to within 20 feet them and cast to them for an hour without them moving.

And as far as the fish swimming around eating in a feeding frenzy, those fish can be put down by a clumsy or unskilled fisherman - I know because I've had doofuses tromp through while I'm fishing and ruin my shot at a good fish. But with the spawners, you can make a lot of noise and a lot of bad casts, and still they sit right there as sitting ducks.

Now, there's nothing illegal about fishing to spawners, and it doesn't hurt the population on a put and take tailwater. Just don't tell me catching a trout off a redd is any kind of major accomplishment.

bd

[txnative]

I agree, bd, on the ease of catching a highly visible fish in low water. I brought the point up to show that a double standard exists. I've seen smallies on bed in creeks that I could walk within 3 ft of that would pounce on a lure at my feet, easy but not sporting by any means.

Travis' original question brought up a great point between protecting a fishery vs. being an ethical angler. If you are targeting fish that you KNOW you're going to catch, where's the sport? I know fishing minnows for crappie near brushpiles is almost a guarantee, but there is still the chance of slinking out, and I'm sure everyone who bass fishes has thrown everything but dynamite at a huge bass on a bed to no avail, myself included. I think the sport of sport-fishing disappears when you can stand on a fish's head and drift a fly over it for hours...or until you snag it. This isn't fishing, it's snagging, and it isn't even legal to snag trout. Kind of a weird problem to fix since it all boils down to an individual angler's own code of ethics.


Chris

[Travis C.]

Maybe TK or some other you striper guys can give insight the their spawn. Unless I am mistaken don't they spawn on shoals in shallow water? Maybe not as shallow but definitely not where they normally are at any other given time of the year. How does the striper crowd view fishing to those big girls who come up to try and do their thing similiar to the browns?

Would they be a good fish for comparison?

This was a couple years ago but I have had guys come downstream in a boat that apparently thought I was fishing to a spawner but instead I was drifting patterns downstream into a color change and they literally came over to about 3ft or so from me to pass. He also made sure to jet wash my area below me too. Both guys gave me the stare down and one even shook his head.

I am just trying to understand where all the craziness comes from every year around this time from people on both sides of the fence.

[txnative]

Stripers aren't a great comparison because A: they don't "bed," and B: they continue to feed during their spawn. Also, getting a spawning cow striper to eat isn't too difficult, trying to stop a 40+ lb pissed off striper in a snag-infested small river is next to impossible!


Chris

One thing about the stripers is the chance for a successful spawn is very low.It dose happen some years but the chances are very low.Its mainly a put and take fishery.Some bodies of water you may have a successful spawn if the all the conditions are perfect water,flow,temps,and weather but even then the reproduction rates are still very low and it wont happen every year. Other bodies of water they do not successfully spawn at all anytime.If you catch spawning stripers and keep them you are not going to hurt the population.Most people that release them is so they can grow and get bigger so the body of water your on will become a trophy lake or river.The fish that are caught and kept will be replaced when they stock again.I am not a trout fisherman but I always thought it was the same for trout to since most of our waters are stocked and natural reproduction is not possible.Isnt it very hard for trout to reproduce in the tailwater fisheries since the water levels drastically change so often?If so the stocking is the only way to keep trout in the river.What about the lakes that have trout like Dale Hollow?I would think they have a better chance of spawning in the lakes than in the tailwaters cause the water is more stable.There are some good points being brought up.I know on the upper Elk between Tims and Woods dam I dont think its ever possible for the stripers to spawn there.The river isnt long enough from Tims lake to Woods dam and the flow and water levels change to much but on the TN and Cumberland river some years when the conditions are right you may get a few eggs that hatch. I dont have any problem with people keeping fish that are within the limits and size regs on a put and take fishery.A portion of our license fees goes to putting those fish back in those waters. Think of how many trout would be in the caney if all those stripers weren't in there eating them but you wouldnt get rid of the stripers just to have more trout. As far as whats sporting I dont think it matters if you can see the fish or not or know that there in that area make it any less sporting for me.In the spring alot of fisherman on this site target there favorite fish when they are spawning.I love to fish the white bass and walleye run on the duck in the spring and these fish target shallow gravel bars and shoals in 2-3ft of water.Alot of time you can see the fish.But to me that doesnt make it less of a sport to catch them.If anything I think thats what makes some fisherman better than others because you still have to know where, when, and how to catch them.On the fish I catch in the spring that are a naturally reproducing fish I try to keep the males and release the females.As far as the sport I dont think it lessens it any because the fish are shallow,spawning and can be seen.