You are the man Chris!! loved the response!!, I'm still the groupie but I know if I put the time and continue to ask questions, document my trips and observations and listen to the advice given it will be just a matter of time before I can get proficient and may even develop my own way to catch fish and do it year round, thanks to all of you who have shared knowledge and advice in such unselfish way (and there are many on here) too many to mention!!