Kayakers Beware

[browntrout]

I know several of you fish Todd's Lake here in the Boro. Be careful, there appears to be a guy with a gun threaten some of the kayakers on the lake.

http://murfreesboro.com/kayak-fishing-leads-to-a-drawn-gun/


Roy

[ttitan27]

I have heard of other people fishing there in the past and having someone come out and yell at them. Seems like the man has stepped up his game. Hopefully the victims will take out the warrants and pursue legal action. Maybe it will get the man to stop and think about his actions before someone is killed over a fishing hole.

[thehick176]

Holy cow! I've had people approach me while I was fishing around their dock from my boat. Saying I'm not allowed to fish around their dock. They've never pulled a gun but nowadays you never know.

[XxthejuicexX]

Stupid, Stupid, Stupid, He might pull a gun on the wrong individual and get shot. It is a private lake so I don't know how that works. I was thinking about heading back over and fishing it soon though. Might want to grab the AR pistol and take it with me, Nothing like a handgun that shoots a rifle caliber and holds 30 rounds. I do hope he learned his lesson in all seriousness.

[thehick176]

If its private and he's not the owner.....what's he thinking!?

[XxthejuicexX]

If its private and he's not the owner.....what's he thinking!?


Got me. Last time I fished it there were multiple people out and about and no one said anything to me. Some people are just asses.

[ttitan27]

It is a private lake so I don't know how that works.


Yes and no maybe. The portion southeast of Rutherford Blvd is owned by the city of Murfreesboro. One section northwest of Rutherford blvd is owned by MTSU foundation c/o John Wilson. Not really sure what that means as far as access goes. The far northwestern half is owned by Nicky Lowe c/o Tim Nixon. Tim Nixon does own a house on property that borders this section. I have no idea if he is the person or not that was waving a gun.

All this info is on the Rutherford county property data page.

[jad2t]

Yea from what I've heard the lake isn't actually private and someone told me it's actually listed as a TWRA access point. I never looked it up because I didn't plan to fish there. I've heard about some jerkoff that lives there yelling at people but technically he doesn't have the authority to kick people out.

Juice is right though, he's gonna pull this crap on someone who carries and it's not going to end well.

[agelesssone]

Legally, the man should be arrested for brandishing a gun in a threatening manner.
It is against the law to meaningful expose your gun to someone in the heat of an argument. If you were to be arguing with someone and you lifted the bottom of your shirt to expose your gun to them, that is a nonverbal threat of using the gun.
This guy would be arrested and most likely lose his gun card and guns....and like you say, wrong guy and he could lose a lot more.
Pull that on an armed veteran, not so good.

[SalmonDaze]

I'm not a land management or real estate attorney, but a quick look at a google map of the lake shows multiple private residences with lake front access, and one even shows a kayak atop a dock.

Almost all laws of which I'm aware concerning ownership of the "water" is that said ownership ends at the water's edge. Of course, a lake or pond entirely circumscribed by an owner's property boundaries is not included.

Any lunatic brandishing a weapon, particularly a firearm, with a threat to shoot across water needs to be arrested, jailed, and held. Full stop.

[ditz1]

If the yakers are trespassing then the police or DNR should be called and the transgressors cited and fined for their offense. This guy is a stupid jerk and deserves what he gets. I hope he has not passed on any of his genes. I don't even know where the lake is and don't live in the boro. The police needs to do their job before somebody gets shot.

[Travis C.]

Almost all laws of which I'm aware concerning ownership of the "water" is that said ownership ends at the water's edge. Of course, a lake or pond entirely circumscribed by an owner's property boundaries is not included.

If it falls along the lines of creeks and small streams "not" deemed navigable then they own the stream bed or in this case the lake/pond bed.

I have always wondered how this would relate to ponds/small lakes. Because if it is the same and it is cut up like a pie so to speak with one side public then you "should" be able to access legally as long as you don't get out on private property.

I can access a small stream on a greenway float through private stretches ending up back at a greenway downstream legally so I wouldn't see how this is different.

Then again it being legal and the "private" owners knowing that or accepting that are two different things.

[browntrout]

Maybe we should hold a Kayak Tournament on Todd's lake. That should be fun!!

Roy

[Reel Tune]

I was just thinking the same thing browntrout. We'll call it the "1st Annual Kayak Fishing Shootout"

On a more serious note, I know a lot of people who carry while on the water, and wouldn't put up with that.

If someone exposed a gun in a threatening manor to me, it would be a different story.

[TroutFiend]

Not to get to off subject. In TN if you walk in at a bridge access point and "wade" a creek thru private land is that trespassing?

[XxthejuicexX]

I was just thinking the same thing browntrout. We'll call it the "1st Annual Kayak Fishing Shootout"

On a more serious note, I know a lot of people who carry while on the water, and wouldn't put up with that.

If someone exposed a gun in a threatening manor to me, it would be a different story.

Sign me up for the shootout. I carry with me anytime I am on the water. I am going out tonight by myself, so you better believe I am packing. I don't know how I would have reacted to him threatening me with a firearm. I have mine holstered on my hip in the kayak so it can be easily pulled if needed. You threaten my life and brandish a weapon and I think you are serious we might have to see who is the better shot.

[Travis C.]

Not to get to off subject. In TN if you walk in at a bridge access point and "wade" a creek thru private land is that trespassing?

Yes.

The owners own the stream bed. It has to be able to float without touching bottom. Even in a boat dropping anchor is the same as standing on the legally speaking.

Road bridge accesses aren't all technically public though.

[Alphahawk]

Not to get to off subject. In TN if you walk in at a bridge access point and "wade" a creek thru private land is that trespassing?

The answer is....maybe. This is something I did a ton of research on 2 years back. Tennessee has some of the most liberal laws allowing access to streams and rivers of any state in the nation. The term navigable waterways comes in to play here and a lot of people mistake that term as meaning boat...barge traffic. That is not the case and I have all the pages I read about this bookmarked and can reference them but it would take a while to go through my bookmarks to find them all. In Tennessee "navigable" has broad meaning. The stream can even be dry in places and still be considered navigable. I have a list of all the waterways in Tennessee considered navigable water ways by the USACE. While Tennessee law uses that as a reference it is not considered the "Bible" once one is in court for trespassing. Then there is the "high water mark". This is an area you can look at and tell that at one time water was at that point...it can be driftwood....gravel....many things. This is important as according to law you can be on dry land and if it is in the high water mark you are still considered in the stream bed and not trespassing. But the problem comes when and if you get arrested for trespassing and wind up in the court. The local judge may see it different. I went to all this trouble as I wanted to float Forty Eight Creek. It is all on private land except for some bridges. But while I never did float it others have and done so with no problems.


Regards

[TroutFiend]

I was looking at the Army Corps of Engineers website.
I found a map, but I am trying to find the navigable waters in Wilson County.
Is there a better website to reference this?
Thanks

Andy

[thehick176]

Troutfiend....have you been wanting to wade Barton's creek from Hartman to Coles Ferry? I'm not a fan of dropping in below the sewer plant on Hartman but from Maple hill to the lake I'm down!

[Alphahawk]

I was looking at the Army Corps of Engineers website.
I found a map, but I am trying to find the navigable waters in Wilson County.
Is there a better website to reference this?
Thanks

Andy

Here is an UACE web site for navigable waters.....or what is considered by them to be so...but this list does not cover all the streams in Tennessee.



Regards

http://www.lrn.usace.army.mil/Missions/Regulatory/NavigableWatersList.aspx

[TroutFiend]

Troutfiend....have you been wanting to wade Barton's creek from Hartman to Coles Ferry? I'm not a fan of dropping in below the sewer plant on Hartman but from Maple hill to the lake I'm down!


I have waded both of those areas. Wading upstream from Coles Ferry is mighty fine fishin ;). I waded up to the water treatment sign one day and thought, maybe my waders aren't that water tight . Lol. I fish the beginnings of this creek quite frequently.

[TroutFiend]

Thanks Alpha, this is what I was looking for.

[Pookie]

The answer is....maybe.

Correct. This is a HUGE problem in Arkansas during duck season. The White River floodstage is 26' in Clarendon. When the White floods, it causes the Cache to flood. When the Cache floods, you literally have access up and down the river to millions of acres of flooded rice and beans. Hunters try to invoke Riparian Right, but wind up being asked to leave or being arrested.

Just because the land floods does not bar the property owner their land rights. That has been upheld all the way to the Supreme Court. I'm unsure whether that is state or federal. One thing is for certain though, Tennessee strictly bars the use of deadly force in the protection of property. If I'm accidentally somewhere I'm not supposed to be, just ask me to leave, and I'm gone. Point a gun at me over the same matter, and somebody better call the law...there's a shootout in progress.

[TNBronzeback]

It was always a problem first ice in michigan. All the canals would freeze over first. The very rich folks have homes on canals up there and they had the attitude of "your on the ice in front of my house, i own that ice, stay off" ive seen fist fights break out on the ice where the homeowner gets in the fishermans faces, yelling and screaming at the tops of thier lungs to get the BLEEP off thier ice. Per the norm, the home owner would push the ignoring fisherman while he sat on his bucket, fisherman gets up, decks the homeowner, sits back down and keeps fishing. Appauled wife calls sherrif, sherrif gets the scoop from dozens of witnesses on the ice, homeowner at the worst get taken to jail, most of the time no charges were pressed. Said fisherman got thier satisfaction from dotting a loudmouths eye or splitting his nose. Quite a few fisherman harrassment cases though. Lol.
Of course that was 15 years ago before firearms became more prevalent. Could be a war zone up there now for all i know.
In those cases just cause they live on the public waters, they think they own thier fair share of whats in front of thier house.
Some people on the water are just crazy!

[SAMBOLIE]

It was always a problem first ice in michigan. All the canals would freeze over first. The very rich folks have homes on canals up there and they had the attitude of "your on the ice in front of my house, i own that ice, stay off" ive seen fist fights break out on the ice where the homeowner gets in the fishermans faces, yelling and screaming at the tops of thier lungs to get the BLEEP off thier ice. Per the norm, the home owner would push the ignoring fisherman while he sat on his bucket, fisherman gets up, decks the homeowner, sits back down and keeps fishing. Appauled wife calls sherrif, sherrif gets the scoop from dozens of witnesses on the ice, homeowner at the worst get taken to jail, most of the time no charges were pressed. Said fisherman got thier satisfaction from dotting a loudmouths eye or splitting his nose. Quite a few fisherman harrassment cases though. Lol.
Of course that was 15 years ago before firearms became more prevalent. Could be a war zone up there now for all i know.
In those cases just cause they live on the public waters, they think they own thier fair share of whats in front of thier house.
Some people on the water are just crazy!

Hitting the fisherman was unnecessary. Just shove his fishing pole in his ice hole.

[TNBronzeback]

Hitting the fisherman was unnecessary. Just shove his fishing pole in his ice hole.

Lmao....instead the crazed home owner got knocked on his!

[tcintn]

To get back on Todd Lake in Murfreesboro.I copied this site and sent to a LEO in Murfreesboro and he called today and informed me that Todd Lake is a private and he says he was shown the deed to it which states it is 33 acres in size.
Now after saying all of that, he is concerned about him approaching folks with the gun.

[MPD816]

I may have to bring it up in roll call on Monday. See if they will let me go stake it out. I can hear it now " No Sergeant, I have not seen the suspect but I did catch 3 nice bass" " What do you mean square patrol, Sergeant?" I will definitely pass this along to patrol to keep a look out.

[XxthejuicexX]

So what you are saying is, stay off the lake?

[MPD816]

No. I am just going to pass on that we need extra patrols through the area. I am going to ask the gentleman that we have permission to fish from about the restrictions that they have for the lake. I have never had anyone approach us while on the water but we need to get some clarification before something happens. I will try and post an answer ASAP.

[agelesssone]

Thanks MPD! Hate to see a fisherman or a homeowner get shot over something like this. It would cause a lot of headaches for both parties involved.

Legal bills out the wazoo, possibly hospital bills, God forbid, funeral bills and possible jail time.

Definitely not worth it for a few fish when you break it down like that.

How's that boat treatin ya? Getting to do much fishing out of it?

Tell the wife I said Hey!

Merv

[MPD816]

Thanks Merv. I finally broke down and sold my boat to my brother after a year of him nagging me. I bought a couple of kayaks and a camper. How's the family doing?

[agelesssone]

We are doing fine. Sophia just started kindergarten, I'm working on the guiding business and Momma is keeping the household running smoothly.

So, you broke down and joined the plastic navy! Have you fished any of the tournaments they've had?

I have trouble catching fish with fifty pounds of lures and accessories and a big boat. What would I catch in a yak? Probably 4 or 5 inch bluegills.....ON A GOOD DAY.

[jaysouth]

Check your PMs


thanks

[MPD816]

I spoke with the officer that is handling the situation today. He is working diligently to get this under control. He has made meetings with the appropriate personnel to get some answers. Unfortunately the answers appear to be under a mound of paperwork dating back to the 60's. In the case of the armed subject, as most of you may know it is an open case and I can't say much about it but things are in the process of getting resolved with it also. I just ask you guys to be careful if you fish the area and please let us try and resolve the situation before it gets out of hand. I will keep you guys posted with updates when I can.

[Reel Tune]

What if a land owner that has property on the lake gives you permission? Would it be ok to fish then?

[MPD816]

That is a question we are trying to answer. Problem we are having is "does a person own the water table if it accessible by multiple locations?" Any documentation would be helpful if anyone can help out. Believe me, we want to resolve any issues this causes, present or future. A lot of us at the police dept fish to support our work habit.

[SAMBOLIE]

What if a land owner that has property on the lake gives you permission? Would it be ok to fish then?

That is a question we are trying to answer. Problem we are having is "does a person own the water table if it accessible by multiple locations?" Any documentation would be helpful if anyone can help out. Believe me, we want to resolve any issues this causes, present or future. A lot of us at the police dept fish to support our work habit.

This is only speculation on my part.
Seems that there would be a charter/rules that the property owners have to abide by. That could include a multitude of rules. One possibility is the owner granting permission has to be present.

IMO anyone who thinks they have the right to fish any body of water on private property without permission is the one who needs to pay a penalty. If you want to fish in a private lake build your own or abide by the rules.

[MPD816]

There are multiple owners of the property that the lake resides on. Who has the ultimate responsibility then? The waterway is not navigable but has a public access? Does the land owner own the water that is between two dams? They may own the property that ends at the water line but who has the water? Who owns the water at the end of the docks on Old Hickory lake? Are you trespassing every time you fish the docks? These are the type of questions we are trying to answer. Like I asked earlier, if anyone has any documentation that we could reference it would be a tremendous help. Thanks

[Pookie]

1. Check the master deed
2. Check the tax roles. Determine if the alleged owner has been paying property tax on the property. If so, he owns what is on top and bottom clear to China.

[sqlightning]

Any update on this? I just got a kayak and am getting an itch to try out this lake.

[tkwalker]

I was looking at the Army Corps of Engineers website.
I found a map, but I am trying to find the navigable waters in Wilson County.
Is there a better website to reference this?
Thanks

Andy

Andy , It seems Randy has done a lot of research on a state level on this subject ...

Now as far as the US Corps of Eng.'s. . In Tennessee, They recognize and must maintain certain channel depths for commercial and private vessels ... The only river that is Navigable as far as the corps is concerned in Wilson county is the Cumberland River chain ... I.E. All of the lakes That has formed via Dams ... from Celina, TN. ...Cordell Hull, Old Hickory, Cheatham, Barkley, until it dumps into the Ohio River about 5 miles north of Paducah, Ky. and then on into the Mississippi ...

Now the Tennessee River enters the picture here and forms the Land Between the Lakes .. That starts in Knoxville, Tennessee and dumps into the Ohio at Paducah... Also a Navigable waterway , The Tennessee forms the following Lakes via dams .. Chickamauga, Fort Loudoun, Guntersville , Kentucky, Melton Hill, Nickajack, Pickwick, Watts Bar, Wheeler, and Wilson ... And there are other smaller rivers that the Corps maintains that are off shoots of the Tennessee ...

Note: all of the above mentioned Lakes are navigable to the Gulf of Mexico via the Mississippi ... I have Corps Charts (Books ) that show what is navigable ... For instance at Carthage where the Caney Fork Dumps into the Cumberland(Old Hickory) Four miles down stream from the Cordell Hull Dam ... The Caney is not a Navigable waterway ... <'TK>< :)